我们的时代，电脑可以代替人类做很多事情，玩音乐自然也不在话下。各种音乐合成软件让普通人都能掌握得游刃有余，于是人们不禁要问，电脑会作曲了，音乐家们还能做些什么呢？ 如果你也有同样的疑问，那么在本期《无限播客》栏目中，音乐家们会给我们答案。
Host: Today we’re talking about the relationship between technology and music. So with our expert guests, one of whom is musician and producer Martin Ware.
Now in the 1980s he founded The Human League and Heaven 17, and he’s also created his own 3D surround sound technology.
Just quickly Martin, just so we can get to know you even more than we already do, do you think you’d have become a musician without the technology, without 1)synthesizers and so on?
Martin Ware: There would have been no chance of me being a musician without technology. (laughs) I did try playing a guitar once, and it hurt my fingers. I’m now…I just couldn’t believe it when finally affordable 2)synths came out, and it was either buy a second-hand car when I was 17 or buy a…buy a cheap synth, and I bought a cheap synth. I liked it particularly because you could only play one note at a time. That was about the limit. But the great thing was I could actually 3)mutate the sounds and create sounds that nobody’d ever heard before.
Host: Mmm.
Martin: So that was a fantastic opportunity for me at that point.
Host: Now, also, you heard earlier Sarah Nichols, who was playing that amazing music on the piano. She is a musician, she’s a hacker, a writer and an academic, and in the latter, she’s a senior lecturer in the School of Art at[1]Brunel University, just outside London. I just wonder, is…is there one kind of innovation or technology that, for you, has kind of been really significant in electronic music?
Sarah Nichols: Well I think the sensors that I’m using today which are sensors that are worn directly on the body, are really interesting because it means that we can be physical with computer music, and we can use physical impulses, movements, gestures, breathing even, to control electronic music and that’s sort of humanizing technology, which I think is really fascinating.
Host: Okay. The 4)ensemble is nearly complete, but also, of course here, as ever, is our expert Bill Thompson.(Applause)
Bill, how much of a musical purist are you? I mean, do you think there’s a point where, you know, the technology just gets in the way and it just stops being music?
Bill Thompson: No. As you…the technology never gets in the way. I think you can’t…you…If…if it works for you emotionally as a human being, then it counts. The problem with me is often the quality of the sound, so MP3s and those ways of representing music can be very 5)irritating, but, no, the technology, for me, is always part...always, can always be part of the musical experience, it doesn’t get in the way of it at all.
Host: And I suppose whatever the technology, Bill, whether it’s synths or 6)sequences, 7)banjos, 8)bagpipes, you name it, I mean, at the end of the day they are, you know, human creations, so maybe the more technology we use the more we celebrate the 9)ingenuity of humankind.
Bill: Oh that sounds 10)moderately 11)plausible, but I think actually it’s totally wrong.
All: (Laughing)
Bill: We…we’re not celebrating humankind in that sense. It…it’s more that, you know, as a species we like to make music. We like to organize sounds around us, and it has an impact on us, and we’ve always taken whatever is to hand to do that with, and we put a lot of effort into making synths, making 12)inverted pianos, exploring the...the…the 13)fringes of consciousness to try to find different ways of doing that over the past 50,000 years of human evolution; we will continue to do that.
Host: Right. Okay. Now also I want to see what the 14)panel and the audience think of this. Now, here’s the 15)scenario. You turn up to the 16)gig, there are loads of fans there, the…the merchandise is on sale as you walk in, and then you get into the 17)venue, the dry ice gets going, and then, suddenly, you…you hear this.
(A piece of music)
Host: That’s [2]Hatsuni Miku and her track World Is Mine. Now that was performed live in Tokyo, and you might not have got this on the radio unless you know Hatsuni’s 18)oeuvre already, but she’s basically an 19)android pop star, so she has a female 20)persona, she has that voice that’s fully 21)synthesized, uses technology called “[3]vocaloids” too. Appearance-wise she has kind of long blue hair in 22)pigtails, she’s an amazing dancer, and she was playing that with a live band, so as you watch that video, there…there’s a guy on the drums, you know, and a 23)bloke on the guitar, and it’s all a kicking off, the audience are waving glow sticks and so on. And this, you see, troubles me. Alexis, love to know what you think of this, you know, that here you have, you know, a robotic, synthetic pop star. Does that 24)devalue what it…what performance is all about?
Alexis: I…I don’t think it devalues it at all. My immediate reaction is excitement. I think…I…I do look at things in different contexts. For example, it is quite 25)thrilling watching a human pianist performing with great expression. That’s…that’s one context, but at the same time the idea of changing the whole nature of pop music performance by using an android, I…I think it’s a thrilling idea, and…and I think people will start to use to [sic] more creative ways and the androids will become more realistic and the concerts will become more exciting.
Host: I just wonder, Martin, you know, we can celebrate all this, but isn’t it a bit troubling? You know the human’s already being edged out. It’s beginning to be game over, isn’t it?
Martin: No, I don’t agree with that at all. I mean, I think it’s a bit like cooking. I think, you know, if…if you cook with the wrong ingredients or 26)inferior ingredients, you’ll end up with something that’s terrible. I mean it’s…it’s about algorithms, it’s about raw ingredients of sound, it’s about understanding how to 27)curate your own experience with composition, and the…and a synthesizer or a guitar or a piano is just a tool to achieve that. I…I’ve got a funny story about[4]Frank Zappa. He…he did a…a…a trick on his…on…on…on some reviewer. He…he recorded a bunch of different instruments, all at separate times, with no reference to the other instruments on the multi-track, and then he said to the reviewer, you know, listen to this fantastic 28)interplay between all these things, and they…of course they were all recorded separately.
主持人：今天我们将谈一谈科技与音乐的关系。那么和我们一起探讨的嘉宾里，其中一位是音乐家及制作人马丁·韦尔。
在20世纪80年代，他成立了乐队“人类同盟”和“17号天堂”，还创造了他独有的3D环绕立体声技术。
简单了解马丁之后，我们就能比已有的对你的了解知道得更多一些，你觉得如果没有科技，没有电子合成器等等，你能成为一名音乐家吗？
马丁·韦尔：没有科技我就不可能成为一名音乐家。（笑）我的确曾经试过弹吉他，还弄伤了我的手指。现在我……当买得起的合成器终于出来时，我不敢相信。那是我17岁时，（我可以选择）要么买一辆二手车，要么买一台便宜的合成器，然后我就买了一台便宜的合成器。我特别喜欢那台合成器，因为你一次只能弹奏一个音符，那差不多是我的极限了。但好处就是我能够变换音乐，创作出没人听到过的声音。
主持人：嗯。
马丁：所以从那一点上说，对我是个极好的机会。
主持人：那么，你们之前还听了莎拉·尼古拉斯的演奏，她用钢琴弹出了那么美妙的音乐。她是一位音乐家、一名电脑玩家、一位作家，还是一位学者，就后者来说，她是紧邻伦敦市的布鲁内尔大学艺术学院的高级讲师。我就想知道，对你来说，有没有一种改革或者科技对电子音乐是真正稍具意义的？莎拉·尼克尔斯：我想，我今天用的传感器是直接戴在身上的那种，这非常有趣，因为这意味着我们能够和电脑音乐来个身体感应，而且我们可以用身体本能、动作、姿势，甚至呼吸去控制电子音乐，这可以说是以人为本的技术，我觉得真的很吸引人。
主持人：好的。全体嘉宾几乎都出场了，不过还有一位，当然依旧会出场的是我们的专家比尔·汤普森。（掌声）
比尔，你是一位有多少音乐纯粹主义的人？我的意思是，你认为科技阻碍了音乐或者说它让音乐停滞了，这话有道理吗？
比尔·汤普森：没有道理。科技从来没有阻碍过音乐。我认为如果它能像人类一样富于感情地为你工作，那么它就是有价值的。我的问题常常是关于那些声音的音质，所以像MP3等等那些音乐格式真的很令人生气。但是，这话毫无道理，对我来说，科技永远都可以当作是音乐体验的一部分，它一点儿也没有阻碍音乐的发展。
主持人：比尔，我以为无论何种科技，不管是合成器或是模进、班卓琴、风笛，凡是你能列举出来的，我指的是，它们归根到底是人类创造出来的，所以也许我们越多地运用科技，我们就越颂扬人类的独创性。
比尔：听起来似乎还是有些可信的，但我认为这实际上完全不对。
所有人：（笑）
比尔：我们不是从这个意义上称赞人类，我们更多的只是作为一个喜欢创作音乐的物种。我们喜欢将周围的声音组织起来，而且这对我们有所影响，我们常常信手拈来任何东西进行创作，在人类进化的五万年间，我们付出了很大的努力来制作合成器，制作反向钢琴，挖掘意识的边缘来努力找到不同的创作方法。我们也会继续这么做下去。
主持人：没错。好的，现在我还想知道全体讨论组成员和观众对此的意见。现在，这里有一个场景，你们往上看这个演唱会，那里有很多粉丝，你们走进去时，商品正在促销中，然后你来到这个会场，干冰开始释放出来了，然后，突然地，你听到了这个。
（一段音乐）
主持人：那是初音未来和她的歌曲《世界是我的》。现在看到的是在东京现场表演的录像，除非你已经熟知初音的所有作品，否则你或许无法从广播中听懂我们在说什么。她基本上是一位机器人流行明星，她是一名女性角色，她的声音完全是人工合成的，用的是又被称为“vocaloid”的软件（译者注：此处主持人口误说成“vocaloids”）。从外观上看，她的蓝色长发扎成马尾，她是一位迷人的舞者，而且她用现场乐队来表演，所以当你看视频时，你会看到有人在打鼓，还会看到一个小子在弹吉他，整个是一种摇滚演唱会的感觉，观众都在挥舞着荧光棒等等。而这个，你们看，让我感到困扰了，亚历克西斯，我想知道你对此的想法，当你看到这样一个机器人、一个人工合成的流行歌星时有什么想法，这会降低演唱会该有的价值吗？
亚历克西斯：我完全不觉得这让演唱会降低了价值。我的第一反应是刺激。我想我确实是从不同层面来看事情的。比如，看一场真人钢琴家用很棒的表达手法的演绎是令人非常感动的，这是一种情况，但与此同时用机器人来改变流行音乐固有演绎方式的点子，我认为这是个很让人兴奋的想法。我想人们将开始用更多有创意的方式，而机器人将变得越来越逼真，音乐会也会越来越激动人心。
主持人：马丁，我想知道，我们可以赞扬所有这一切，但是这会不会有点儿伤脑筋呢？你知道人类已经在被边缘化了。这快要玩儿完了，不是吗？
马丁：不会的，我绝不同意这么说。我的意思是，我想这有点类似烹饪。我觉得如果你用了错误的或者劣质的食材来做饭，那么你会得到某种糟糕的结果。我指的是关于规则的事情，有关原始声音素材，有关作曲体验，而一台合成器或者一把吉他又抑或一台钢琴只是达到此目的的工具。我听过一个关于弗兰克·扎帕的有趣的故事，是讲他捉弄了某个评论家。他在不同的时间录下了许多不同乐器的调子，也没有提及在多轨上的其他乐器。然后他对那个评论家说，听听所有这些曲调之间的互动，然后它们……当然它们都是分开录的。
[ 1 ] Brunel University 布鲁内尔大学成立于1966年，现在学校共有13000名学生，其中国际学生约为2000人，分别来自113个国家。学校位于伦敦西郊的欧克斯桥，是英国最雄心勃勃和高瞻远瞩的大学之一。
[ 2] Hatsuni Miku 初音未来，简称为“初音”，是一款著名的虚拟女性歌手软件，于2007年面世，经过数年的开发之后，现已经成为日本第一人气的虚拟偶像歌手、日本御宅族文化中的女神。2010年3月，虚拟偶像初音未来全息图像演唱会异常火爆，2500张演唱会门票在瞬间被抢购一空。
[ 3] vocaloid 是Yamaha开发的电子音乐制作语音合成软件。输入音调和歌词，就可以合成为原本为人类声音的歌声。
[ 4] Frank Zappa弗兰克·扎帕（1940年12月21日—1993年12月4日），美国作曲家、创作歌手、电吉他手、唱片制作人、电影导演。在他超过30年的职业生涯中，他的音乐作品涵盖了摇滚、爵士、电子、管弦乐和具体音乐等风格。同时弗兰克·扎帕还参与导演长片电影和音乐视频，设计专辑封面等。
